Land Trust Asset Protection
Randy Hughes (Mr. Land Trust) has written extensively for local and national real estate publications. He has taught real estate classes for many years at the University of Illinois, Parkland College and Elgin Community College.
He teaches classes on how to protect your assets and how to become more private with your personal life. He also teaches land trust law and administration, authors the only Land Trust Newsletter and Blog in the country, is the founder of the Land Trust University.
He has written privacy and land trust asset protection books, as well as home study courses. Randy’s most popular publications are his Land Trusts Made Simple!® home study courses and live seminars.
What you’ll learn about in this episode:
- Why you should use a land trust
- Why you don’t want to own real estate in your own name
- Why you should put every property into its own land trust
- What to say when an opposing attorney asks why you are using a land trust
- How to use land trusts to not have to deal with judicial foreclosure situations
- What you need to know about land trusts and complying with the Dodd-Frank law
- Profit as they apply to closing costs
- Why land trusts can be more difficult in some states
- Randy’s course on land trusts and asset protection
Mitch: Hi, this is Mitch Stephen with the Real Estate Investor Summit. I’m here today with a very special guest, and this is going to solve so many issues where a lot of the people that are thinking about owner financing, among other things.
Randy Hughes is going to talk to us today about land trust. And, he is known as Mr. Land Trust throughout the nation. He is one of the top experts on land trust. How and why to use them. And, I’ve been using land trust in my entire career since 1996, let’s say. I’m not exactly sure when I discovered land trust, but I started my career in ’96, and shortly after that, I was using land trust.
And, I will say this about that transition: I thought it was going to be painful. I didn’t want to change. My office didn’t want to change. Nobody wanted to change. We did the first 2 deals with a land trust, and made it part of the system. It was so less complicated than we thought it’s was going to be. It just became part of one of the things on our checklist. And, we’ve been doing land trust ever since, and I’m really glad that I have been doing it.
So, with no further ado, let’s introduce Randy Hughes. How you’re doing, Randy?
Randy: Pretty good, Mitch. Thanks for inviting me on the call today. I’m anxious to start talking about land trust. So, you may be have a hard time getting me to stop. I just love the subject. I could go on all day. But, you let me know how long we can go, and we’ll stop whenever you want to stop.
Mitch: Let’s just play it by ear, here. Let’s keep it going. I know you’ve got some time frames, but, I guess the first question is; Why a land trust? Why would anyone — why should we use a land trust?
Randy: Well, the short answer to that is primarily privacy. Land trusts are terrific privacy tools, and, if you think about asset protection, the very first step that you must take in asset protection is privacy. Because, the less the public knows about you, the less of a target you are for a law suit.
And, the first step of making yourself more private as a real estate investor is to not own real estate in your name, because, if you do own a real estate in your name, that is public information and anybody can just get on the] computers these days, they don’t even have to drive to the court house anymore and look up what you own.
And so, if you just think about this in a practical standpoint, the more you own in your name that people can discover, the bigger the target for a law suit. And, I’m not talking, Mitch, about, you know, avoiding your just responsibilities in life, or not trying to pay your bills by using a land trust. I’m talking about using a land trust to protect you against the nefarious characters out there and their contingency lawyers.
They’re, everyday, searching the waters looking for somebody to sue. They don’t even want to go to court. They just want to sue them, and get them to settle for $10,000, $20,000 or $30, 0000. And, causing a lot of aggravation, sleepless nights and legal fees. So, privacy starts– or asset protection starts with privacy, and the best privacy form for a real estate investor is to use a land trust to hold title to their real estate.
Having said that, I’m sure everybody on the call has probably talked to their attorney about this issue, and 99% of the attorneys have said, “Put your property into an L.L.C.” Let me just say right up front, I use L.L.C.’s, I use corporations. They’re great asset protection tools, but they should not hold the title to the real estate. If you put more than one piece of real estate in any one entity, whether it’s a land trust, a corporation, or an L.L.C., you’ve created a nexus for a law suit, which means you got all these properties in one spot that are easy to attack.
So, my recommendation is you put each property that you buy directly into a land trust. One property, one trust. Then, you make the beneficiary of your land trust your L.L.C., or corporation, and we can talk about that later, if we have enough time, exactly how to structure that. But, that’s a great structure to get started with, because it gives you the privacy of ownership.
Mitch: Yeah. That’s a perfect reason. It also has state reasons. Can you explain how using a land trust can simplify in a state?
Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Sure, can. When you set up and create your land trust, you name a beneficiary. And, you also will name a successor beneficiary. And so, if you are the beneficiary and you pass away, that interest will immediately go to your successor. You do not have to go through probate. You do not have to hire a bunch of lawyers. It’s not a public transaction.
You see, if you own real estate in your name and you die, that has to go through probate, and that has to be done by a licensed attorney. It goes through the court system. It’s made public. What was transferred, who has transferred to. It takes about a year, at least, to get the probate process complete.
So, you’ve got a year of waiting where you don’t have a control over the property. You can’t take money out. And so, using a land trust gets the property and the money directly to your heirs quickly, efficiently and inexpensively by avoiding probate.
Mitch: Yeah, and I’ve learned that’s the go to answer, if you’re sitting across from an attorney, an opposing attorney, or someone who’s not relevant, and they’re asking you why you put this in a state, “Why did you put this in a land trust?” You simply say, of course, “For state planning reasons.” And, that’s legal and fair enough, and enough said, and all the other reasons you can keep to yourself.
Mitch: Yeah. So, that’s the easiest answer. I want to tell you, a lot of times when I’m looking at people — I’m just curious, there’s some people in my town that are heroes to me for buying all the properties that they’ve bought. And, it’s amazing to me that I can just type in their name at the courthouse records, and I could see 800 properties in their name. And, I think that is a very bad move on their part. Hugely bad move.
So, I want to switch gears a little bit, because part of the, well — one of the main reasons that I got you on the call I wanted to talk about was the group of people that I run around with are interested in buying and then owner financing houses to private individuals. You know, making a consumer loan. And, I want to talk to you about how we could use land trust to facilitate that.
And, not trying to get around anything, not go under anything, or skip around anything. But, to use them, the legal right ways to use a land trust to help us in states that have long, lengthy, detrimental judicial foreclosures for people who might want to owner finance houses. Say, like in Florida, or Ohio, or Kentucky, or any other place that has a judicial foreclosure.
Can you talk to us about how to use a land trust to not have to deal with that judicial foreclosure situation?
Randy: Yeah. Let’s start at the beginning here and make sure that everybody on the call understands that, when you create a land trust and you deed property into the trust, the trustee of the trust holds full, legal and equitable title to the real estate. You, as beneficiary, hold a personal property interest. You control the trust. You control the trustee. But, you do not own the real estate. What you own is a personal property interest.
To further illustrate, think of it this way. You may be sitting in a house right now, listening to this call. And, once upon a time, all the component parts of that house were laying in a Home Depot somewhere. And they were all, at that point, personal property. The carpet was, the ceiling, the tiles, the boards, and nails. That was all personal property. But, a builder came along and bought all this stuff, took it out on a piece of ground and stuck it together and now, it is a house.
Now, that all of that personal property is stuck together, it falls under real estate law, because it becomes real estate. When you take that real estate, and dump it into a land trust, you’ve now created it. You’ve converted it back to personal property, via that land trust beneficial interest.
Why is this important? Because, real estate law is different than personal property law. Personal property falls under the U.C.C., the Uniform Commercial Code in the United States, and the laws are different. Now, having set that foundation, if you sell the beneficial interest in a land trust on an installment contract basis, you are selling personal property, not real estate.
To me, I love selling real estate on an installment contract basis, because as you all know, you can sell for a higher price.
Mitch: Sell faster.
Randy: You can sell it faster. You have no vacancy. No loss of rents during vacancy. You have no real estate commission. It’s just a great way to sell real estate. But, the risk is, what if the buyer defaults?
And, the land trust takes most all the risk out of that equation. Because, if the buyer defaults, you repossess that personal property interest. You do not foreclose. Now, foreclosure in my state of Illinois takes about a year, and about $8,000 to $10,000 in legal fees, and a whole lot of sleepless nights and aggravation.
If you repossess personal property, it’s just like a car or a boat. If you financed your car at the bank, they hold the title and you make monthly payments to them until you make the very last payment. You don’t get the title to that car until you make your very last payment.
And, if you default anywhere along the way, they send out the repo man. And, the repo man puts a hook underneath your bumper and hauls your car away. And, that’s what we do if you default on the purchase of a beneficial interest on a land trust.
Mitch: So, let me help with an explanation, too, one way that I see it. Sometimes, you know, we learn from different explanations from different people. A land trust is like a paper bag that you put asset into. And, that paper bag is personal property. And, you can sell the paper bag on installments. And not give up any — and the title still stays in the trust’s name until the final payment.
The reason why you need to go through a foreclosure is to move the title from one person’s name back to another entity’s name. And, that’s what we are trying to avoid in the judicial foreclosure states, because they’re so cumbersome, and so expensive, and so lengthy.
So, what we’re suggesting is, instead of selling the property directly to the buyer and putting the title in his name, and you having a first lien on it, and if they default, you have to go through that judicial foreclosure to get the title moved back out of their name and back into your entity’s name, that’s what we are trying to avoid.
So, what we want to do is put the property into a land trust and sell the beneficial interest of the land trust on installments. And, they don’t get the 100% beneficial interest of the trust, which contains, or controls, or owns the real estate. They don’t get the 100% beneficial interest of the trust until they make the last payment.
So, that the title is still in your entity’s name, if they default, it is simply an eviction, or a repossession. It is not a foreclosure. It is not trying to move title. It is just trying to take possession. And so, that is the difference.
Randy: Can I add to that, Mitch?
Mitch: Please. If I said anything wrong, feel free to correct me.
Randy: No. Not at all. I just think that lots of times, when we discuss these concepts, especially verbally, it’s a little bit difficult to grasp. So, I’d like to explain the process that I go through when I sell this beneficial interest.
Most of time, I’m selling to a tenant that has been a long term tenant. They’ve paid rent on time, and they’re good in all respects, but they just don’t quite have the credit score they need to cash me out. And, quite frankly, I really don’t want cashed out, because I’m making too much money off a contract sale versus the cash sale.
Randy: But, the practicality of it is, I set a closing at my attorney’s office. We all go sit at the big conference table. They’ve been given the contract to purchase to review in advance. But my attorney, if they don’t have an attorney representing them — sometimes they do, and sometimes they don’t — but, if they don’t, my attorney explains the contract to them again.
So, we go through that. We all sign the contract. Then, if I’m the beneficiary of the trust I’m selling, I sign the assignment of beneficial interest form. And, my attorney keeps the original contract, the original assignment and any other documentation he keeps in his files as an escrow agent.
Mitch: As a what?
Randy: As an escrow agent.
Mitch: Oh, okay.
Randy: He holds the original assignment of beneficial interest. The tenant/buyer walks away with a copy of the assignment, and a copy of the contract to purchase, which both clearly state that they will not be recorded. So, what I’m getting at here is I want these tenants, these buyers to know real and psychologically that we closed the transaction. That they just purchased the beneficial interest of the trust. So, they can’t come back later and say, “Well, you know, I didn’t think we ever really did that,” or “I thought I already owned it. I thought I had title.”
Whatever it is, then I can go back, if I’ve got to go to court, I can take my attorney in there and we can explain exactly what we did, how we did it, copies of everything, and some legitimate transaction that we can prove. As opposed to, if we just loosey goosey and say, “Hey, look at this contract, and get it back to me with your check.” That’s not a good way to do business, in my opinion.
Mitch: I understand, because, sometimes just the process of what the buyer has to go through and how official that process is in their minds, has a lot to do with whether you’re going to get sued, or they’re going to start playing games or not. And I agree 100%.
Mitch: Now, I want to talk about another set of deals that can, — see, I close my deals in-house. Because, I’m trying to save some of the expenses. Although, you’ve got me wondering if I shouldn’t just go ahead and pay the attorney to close at his office right this minute.
But, there’s another thing that I do, that I think may make it official enough. And, I really want your opinion on this. I have been told, and it seems to me that, if you’re selling personal property, that you could be superseding the Dodd-Frank law. There’s some people who would want to use this to supersede that Dodd-Frank.
I, personally, am still going to go through all the Dodd-Frank and conform, and hire my R.M.L.O., because I think the penalties in my volume is so much that I wouldn’t want to be the example with the one to win or lose the case. Just winning the case can costs you a fortune, if you’re the first person out.
So, in your opinion, should we go ahead and am I doing the right thing by getting an R.M.L.O. and going through all the Dodd-Frank complaints, because this is eventually going to be someone’s homestead most of the time?
Randy: Yes. It’s still not exactly clear, as of today’s date, the limitations and the exemptions under the Dodd-Frank. For example, Illinois would have — when Dodd-Frank first came out a couple of years ago, Illinois said they were going to give us, our citizens, 10 exemptions. And, then, they changed it a year later to 3 exemptions, and then they changed it and said no exemptions. They’re waiting to see what other states are doing. So, it’s still up in the air.
But, I think from what I know, using a land trust, or an L.L.C., or corporation, whatever you’re using, is not going to get you around Dodd-Frank. So, I do suggest you follow those rules, as you just mentioned, Mitch. But, let me go back and answer your question about using the attorney.
Part of it is psychological, as I mentioned, to use his influence, his conference room, the pillars on his building, and make it look and feel official. The other reasoning is, he going to serve as my escrow agent, which adds more legitimacy to it.
And third, when I close a transaction with my attorney, his heirs and omissions insurance apply. And, so, I think I paid $550 per closing with my attorney. And, to me, that’s insurance. If nothing else, if I’ve got his insurance on the hook, in case a problem comes up down the road, and something was done wrong, or was missed or whatever, at least I’ve got an insurance policy to fall back on.
Mitch: But you know, and that’s exactly why I use my R.M.L.O. in the Dodd-Frank. It’s because they have insurance.
Mitch: And, these are great points. You know, I used to not have closing costs. And so, now I do because I have to pay $650 for the R.M.L.O. And, if I have to pay $550 for the lawyer, then I now — I’m going to charge $2,000 in closing costs. And, if they can’t pay it, I simply add it to the note.
And, it’s kind of like an employee matching plan. I’ve got to pay an extra $1,000 out of my profit, but they’re going to match me $800. And, it’s a ten and a half percent C.D. over 20 years, or whatever the terms were.
Mitch: So, if you bought carpet for five hundred bucks and put in the room, you wouldn’t charge five hundred bucks. You’d charge a thousand bucks, because that’s how you make a profit. So, the same thing with these closing costs. You just have to add them onto your closing costs, and then mark them up a little bit. Because, you don’t have to lay out your money.
And, I say that we don’t use this stuff to supersede Dodd-Frank. I think it’d be crazy, even though there is no case right now. I have a whole interview with Scott Horn, and he’s a real estate attorney on this topic of Dodd-Frank, and with the R.M.L.O. that works in his office named Grant Kemp is also in this Real Estate Investor Summit. So, if we’ve got your gander a little bit about this subject, you can also go to 1000houses.com and listen to that interview on Dodd-Frank. It is not hard to comply with.
As a matter of fact, you’re paying these people to help you comply, just like you’d be paying Mr. Hughes, here, to help you see how easy it is to use land trust. This stuff seems intimidating at first. It made me want to quit the business for a little while, all this stuff about Dodd-Frank. But, when I faced up to it and looked at it right in the eye, it was actually just forcing me to delegate some things that I should have been delegating anyway. So, it’s all good.
Now, in the land trust arena, Randy, are there states that oppose land trusts? Are there states that work better at land trusts? Or, is everything even across the board? I mean, how are land trusts looked at throughout the United States?
Randy: Well, first off, there are no states that have made land trust illegal by statute. There are states where it’s a little more difficult to deal with them. Primarily because, title companies are not familiar with them, and they say, “Well, yeah, they may be legal, but we’re not going to insure one,” or something.
You get out into Wyoming and some of the far stretched to this country, and no one knows anything about a land trust. No attorney does, no title company does, nobody. So, you know, it can be a little challenging in those areas, but most of the major metropolitan areas have some familiarity with them.
And, as I mentioned, they are legal. You know it’s kind of a good news/bad news thing, Mitch, because the bad news is it’s hard to find somebody that can teach you how to do this. The good news is, once you learn how to do it — and it’s not hard. It’s just finding the correct information — but, once you learn how to do it, then you’re operating at a level that 99% percent of the population doesn’t know about, or understand. And, that’s a great position to be in. When nobody knows what you’re doing but you, it really takes you off the radar.
It’s like a submarine that dips down below the surface. And, all of a sudden, it can move around underneath the ocean, and nobody sees where that submarine is. I think that’s a key element of asset protection, is not being able to be tracked in the public records as to what you are doing.
Mitch: Yeah. Even if they — this is why I use it. This is a large part of why I use a land trust. I’m going to explain it right here. You go to an attorney, and you have your property in your own name, or in your L.L.C., that attorney knows how to deal with you.
And so, someone in your rent house, or your house stubs their toe, and they go to the attorney and they want to sue you for $10,000. Not because it’s worth it. It’s just because they’ve played this game before, and they know how to extort money from you.
And so, the attorney would get on the courthouse records, and find everything that you own, if it’s in your name, or in your L.L.C. But, in this other case, you have every single one of your properties in a land trust. And, they ask their people to bring in their papers. And so, their client brings in the papers, and it’s in this land trust. and 99.9% of the attorneys on the planet do not know what a land trust is, or what it’s for, or how it works.
And, all of a sudden, he’s going to have to go to the land trust statute and start learning all about land trusts, so he can try to defend this person’s poor case about stubbing their toe. And, now he has to ask her for a retainer, because he’s not going to study all up on land trusts for free. And, that’s when the thing goes away. Because, the person that stubbed their toe in your house that wants to give you an illegitimate lawsuit, doesn’t have the money to pay the attorney the retainer.
And so, the whole grayness of the whole thing, it just goes away. And, that’s my explanation of one of the main reasons why I use land trust. Is it just — lawyers just don’t understand them, and they’re not going to take cases on contingency for things they don’t understand.
Randy: Yeah. That’s a great explanation. I agree 100%. And oh, let me get back to answering your original question about states.
A few of the states, like Pennsylvania, Arizona and Hawaii have laws on the books that, if you create a land trust to hold title to real estate, that you have to disclose the beneficiary of the land trust upon creation of the trust. And, that seems a little [LAUGHTER], a little counterproductive to your privacy issues.
So, never fear, because, if you can’t out-think a bureaucrat, you might as well as go home. What we do in those states is I tell my students to make the beneficiary of their land trust a personal property trust. And then, they can either own the personal property trust as the beneficiary of, or their L.L.C. can be the beneficiary of the personal property trust.
But, the point is, if you make a trust the beneficiary of your land trust, then in those states where you have to divulge the beneficiary, you are just telling the state the name of another trust. And, that doesn’t tell them who really is in control, which is you, at the bottom of the pile. So, there are ways around these states which are a little more problematic, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t use them in those states.
Mitch: Well, make no mistake: If you get into a real lawsuit, they’ll subpoena your tax records, and they’re going to find out. They’ll get to bottom at the end. It’s just a matter of how much trouble that they want to go through.
And, it’s really a matter of avoiding frivolous law suits. And, there are so many predators out there that are becoming more litigious all the time. Not so much in Texas, but in some states, it’s just rampant.
It’s about making things as difficult as possible for people at the least expense to you. Because, you could put everything in a separate L.L.C., but, my gosh, think of the tax returns you have to do, and tax reporting, and the [CROSSTALK]. It’s a nightmare.
Because, the more entities you create to protect yourself, the bigger your tax bill, your C.P.A. and income tax returns will get, because you have to keep up with all of these entities. What neat about land trust is they just kind of flow through to the beneficiary.
People have asked me before, “But, don’t I have to have a separate bank account for every land trust?” What do you say to that?
Randy: No. No. In fact, most land trusts don’t have bank accounts. Land trusts don’t file tax returns. They don’t have tax ID numbers. They are flow through entities in the eyes of the I.R.S.
So, if you own real estate right now in your name, you’re filing the results of that real estate on a 1040 Schedule E. Your personal tax returns, Schedule E. If you put that property into a land trust, making yourself, personally, the beneficiary of a land trust, you will continue to report the tax ramifications on your 1040 Schedule E.
Mitch: And, if you make your corporation the beneficiary in the land trust, it just flows through to the corporation, right?
Randy: That’s right. That’s right, or L.L.C., or whatever it is you make the beneficiary, then, you’re going to file at that level. No tax issues when it comes to a land trust. They’re just flow throughs.
Mitch: So, all you have to go do is just code your checks, when you write checks, for different things. You just code them to what land trust the expense is for, or the income. Very simple. Quickbooks will sort it all out for you.
Well, I think we’ve touched on a pretty good amount of what I wanted to talk to you about on land trust, Randy. Do you have anything you want to add?
I just wanted to tell everyone there’s going to be a link right there where you click to listen to this interview. And, if you want to know more about Randy’s course, and it’s phenomenal. This guy’s going to give you free access to him. He’s actually going to answer the phone himself, much like we do around my office. You know how I answer the phone and talk to you guys personally when you’re on my team.
Well, Randy has got the same philosophy as I do. When you call him, you don’t get one of his students that did ten land trusts last year. You get him. And, that’s the same with me.
He’s going to be on retainer for you for a whole year. And, you’re going to be able to talk to him about this stuff. And, he’s going to help you set up for your state, and your causes, and your reasons.
Tell us a little bit about what they’ll get, Randy. I don’t want to speak for you.
Randy: Well, I do have a home study course that teaches you how to create your own trusts. It provides all the forms you’ll ever need the rest of your life. You’ll never pay another dime to create land trusts for the rest of your life. So, it’s a great home study course. It comes with a DVD of me teaching the same material for a live audience. And so, you can listen to it ten times over, if you want to.
But, I encourage everyone on this call to consider getting that. And, then, as Mitch said, I will answer my phone and help answer questions for you. I would like to make a free offer to everybody, if it’s alright with you, Mitch.
Mitch: Sure. Tell us about your bonus and stuff, that’s fine.
Randy: Okay. Well, first off, if anybody wants, I will be glad to send them a book that I’ve written. I get asked the same questions over and over, you know. “Why should I use a land trust?” And so, I sat down, and wrote a little booklet that’s titled, “Fifty Reasons to Use a Land Trust.” And, I’d be glad to send that to anybody on this call for free. Kind of like “Fifty Shades of Grey”. “Fifty Reasons—- Fifty Shades of a Land Trust.”
Mike and Randy: [LAUGHTER]
Randy: And, I’ll send that booklet to you for free. But, my home study course comes with 100 page course guide, all the forms are hard copy and Word documents, so you can load them up on your computer, and fill in the blanks and hit print.
It comes with the trust agreement you need. It comes with an audio CD of me teaching this live seminar, so you can listen to the seminar in your car, the audio portion. You can watch the same material on your DVD on your computer, and on your television set on a DVD.
In addition to that, Mitch has negotiated with me a killer deal, and he said, “Randy, I want my people to get something special.” So, I said okay. What I’ll do for Mitch’s people only is I will give you a 1 year membership in my Land Trust University. If you go right down on my website, it would cost you $797 for that.
I will give you a one year membership for free, if you buy my basic home study course. And, that Land Trust University membership includes my personal coaching. It includes a lot of other material that you can look at in detail on my website, but it primarily includes my personal coaching.
I don’t hire it out to somebody else. I do the coaching once a month on a Saturday morning. I have all my students call in, and we discuss these issues. And, incidentally, Mitch, those calls are recorded. In case you miss a call, you can always go back and listen to it.
And, I will give all of your folks on this call right now, I will give them access to the last 60 calls that I’ve done over the last years — 5-6 years, whatever that is — of these training calls.
There’s a tremendous amount of information in there. Not only about land trusts, but we talk about corporations, and L.L.C.s, personal property trusts, all kinds of really important information for us real estate investors. So, I hope everybody takes advantage of that. That’s a killer deal.
Mitch: I’m just going to say this flat out to everybody listening. If you’re in this business, and you’re dealing with any kind of volume at all, and you’re not using land trusts, you’re making a big mistake, in my personal opinion.
So many, so many attributes and reasons why to use them. And, so many bad things can happen extra that if you don’t use them. It’s just foolish not to get into it. It’s not that hard.
Randy, you’ve been really great to share your ideas. I hope everyone goes to the link. It’s up there.
Get your “Fifty Reasons To Use a Land Trust.” You’ll be better off if you get to understand this, and start implementing land trusts in your business right away. I’ve been using it since 1996 or 1998, or whenever I converted over from doing it the wrong way. You know, it served me very well, in my career.
I’ve actually been sued 3 times in 1,300 houses, and those people were going to sue anybody they bought a house from next, and I was the lucky guy. I won all 3 of those law suits, and the land trust was really beneficial from keeping them from moving to my other — and looking at my other assets and stuff. I’m grateful that I had it.
Randy, thanks for being on the call. I just can’t thank you enough, because what you give is so valuable. It is so valuable. It can save people a lot of time and money and heartache. And, I appreciate you.
Randy: Thanks for having me on. I love talking about it, and feel free to call me anytime you want to, Mitch.
Mitch: All right, we’re going to wrap it up. You guys, be sure to click on the link right here where you click to listen to this interview, and get to know more about what Randy is doing. You all have a good one, we’re out.