Why Multifamily Could Be Your Best Investing Choice With Charles Dobens
Episode 536: Why Multifamily Could Be Your Best Investing Choice With Charles Dobens
Are you looking for the right asset class to invest in? Multifamily investing might be the choice for you! Charles Dobens is a multifamily investor, attorney, and mentor to multifamily investors all around the country. He is also the principal at Dobens Law and founder of the Multifamily Investing Academy. In this episode, Charles sits down with Mitch Stephen to discuss the upsides of investing in the multifamily business. With years of experience and over $500 million in transactions, he offers valuable advice and tips to help you get ahead and succeed in the industry. Don’t miss out on this episode!
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I’m here with Charles Dobens. We are friends from way back. We don’t get to see each other all the time but it’s like we never left when we connect. Some people may not know who you are. This is Charles Dobens. He’s up there around the Massachusetts area. He does multifamily. He has been around for a long time.
He is not one of those guys that’s telling you, “You too could be rich,” and then having his car repossessed. This guy lives it. He’s done over $500 million in transactions. He currently owns and operates $20 million worth of stuff. This guy is a player. I also like his coaching style because it’s a lot like mine. If you hire for coaching, for me, you are going to get me. If you hire Charles, you get him. It’s not a call or two calls a month for $40,000 or $50,000. It’s like, “When you need help, let’s talk now.”
When I did some of those groups like Shark Pool, there were about 50 people on there. They are asking me about my coaching program. I said, “My students have my cell phone number. They call me whenever they want me. As a matter of fact, watch this.” I dial a phone number and said, “Everybody, look at Joe Smith on there. His phone is about to ring. He’s a client of mine.” I’ve got him right here, and he picks up the phone, and the two of us are talking to each other right in front of all the other people just to show that, “You didn’t sign up for somebody that went to one of my courses and maybe invested passively. You want to deal with me because I have done this all a million times before. That’s why you pay me the money.”
Anyone who has been living it, that’s now coaching it, they can tell by your conversation. The hair starts to stand up on their neck. I know what’s going on here. I have been down this road. I can see where we are going. You need to protect or cover yourself. Give us a little bit of your background.
I always wanted to own apartments but I took the path of least resistance out of college, which was the family insurance business. I hated it and went to law school. While I was in law school, I was working in a particular niche of the insurance business and making a ton of money. I’ve got out of law school. I was like, “I should go off and keep doing this because I can’t afford to be a lawyer.” I jump over and started my own company. I have about 35 employees working for me, and life is miserable.
Mitch, I said this one time in front of a whole crowd. It came into my mind before I even thought about it. I said, “How many people the worst time of the week for them is Sunday night?” I thought it was just me. I thought I was going to get zero and would have to explain to everybody why I asked that. I started to watch everybody’s heads going up and down. Other people hated Sunday night as much as I did because it was always followed up by Monday morning, where you go in and get your ass handed to you, from the awful business I was in.
Finally, I said to my wife, “I can’t do this anymore. I’m going to kill myself. I’ve got to get out of it.” She says, “What do you want to do?” I said, “I have always wanted to own apartments. Let’s go do it.” She said, “I’m in.” We sold the business and started buying apartments. It did incredibly well. The market crashed. I kept some and lost some but I also learned that some of the people that I’m friends with in this business didn’t know what they were doing.
I decided at that point that I should be teaching these people how to do this business the right way. That’s when I started and mentoring. That was over many years ago, and I can’t wait to get to work every morning. I wake up at 5:30, chomping at the bed because I love getting out there and helping my students. That’s the key.
It’s got to be a passion. It’s not about the coaching fee. It’s about playing on a winning team and going to the Super Bowl with somebody. I have a 45-minute interview before I let someone pay me that big fee. I need to figure out, “How I’m going to help them get that money back.”
I love that you say that you want to be on a winning team. I get some people who are like, “You are nice. You can watch a bunch of my courses and stuff but I can’t help you. You are not the right person for me.” This happened to me. After about three talks with this one person, I said, “I can’t help you. I’m sorry. Your mental attitude is not cut out for this business. You are looking for every excuse why you can’t do it. I don’t want to be your doctor. I don’t want to be your therapist.”
Let’s reel it into the multifamily. When you are in the multifamily business, what business are you in?
It’s the same with any entrepreneurial, you are in sales and marketing. One that I try to stress is that I know that within the first phone call with somebody, whether they are going to be a huge success or not. Those people who come into this business with a sales and marketing background. It’s all about prospecting, asking for the order, and making offers. That’s what you need to be focusing on early on in your business.
If you failed to do that, you are going to be sitting around wondering why your one offer this quarter is not getting accepted. It drives me crazy. We focus on teaching people that this is a sales and marketing business. We are going to give you the tools and the techniques to build your sales and marketing process early on in the business so that it gets you through that first deal. All it takes is the first two deals. After that, this is an easy business.
That is a segue to the giveaway you have. Tell me if it ties in but I think it does. You are giving away the Multifamily Market Finder, which helps people find deals. Is that what it is?
Yeah, and not just find deals. First off, find the market that they want to buy him. At one time, one student closed his fourth deal in the last few years with me. For the first year, this guy was spinning his wheels, and he was all over the place. I said, “Why are you looking in Tallahassee and Indianapolis?” He says, “That’s where the brokers send me deals.”
I said, “You are letting the brokers dictate where your business should be. That’s backward. You should pick a market that is right for you. It could be your own backyard but you need to find a market that you become an expert in. I will show you how to become an expert in your market. Focus on those properties in that marketplace that meet your investment criteria and go to those owners.”
You think about it, “Who are your customers in the multifamily business?” I ask that question to students, and they don’t even know what it is. They are your investors. They give you money. They are your customer. The owners of the properties are your customers. Nothing happens in this business until you have an accepted offer. That’s why you’ve got to make lots of offers.
The first one that comes back that’s the customer saying, “I want to buy your product,” which is your offer. You focus on those two customers. You are going to find the deals. You are going to make this business work for you. You don’t even know who your customers are. You are just working up numbers on a spreadsheet. That’s all you are doing.
It can be a lot of brain damage, too. I want everyone to go to 1000Houses.com/MFOS, which stands for Multifamily Operating System. Get your free copy of the Multifamily Market Finder, which will help you figure out what market you want to go into. Where do you want to do business? If you look at this right, I train some people to do seller financing from far away, from a distance.When you’re in the multifamily business, you’re really in the sales and marketing business. Click To Tweet
That presents a little bit of a challenge because there is that distance, whether it be 200 miles or 2,000 miles, that’s all the same. The cool thing is, though, it’s a little bit more of a challenge to work far away but once you do it, you have created more of a real business because you can’t go rake the leaves in the yard o do whatever.
You don’t want them doing that. That’s not what a business owner does. An entrepreneur does not do that. As Michael Gerber says in his book, The E-Myth Revisited, that’s a technician. You can get anybody to do that. You are no longer the entrepreneur. You are no longer the manager. You are the technician. That’s the biggest mistake that new entrepreneurs make. That’s why they can never scale their business and grow it because they are stuck down at the bottom being a technician.
I like what you said. Your customers are the money lenders and sellers. That’s your customers if you are in the multifamily business because the only way you get ahead in this business is to add units.
Also, have the money. If you think about it, theoretically, you are nothing more than a broker. You are a broker between your investor’s money and a deal that you found. You are matching up the money with the deal. You are extending your gut, your hand out in the stream of commerce, and keeping your piece of the pie. That’s what you are doing. You’ve got to get out there and find that deal and the money.
You are also an attorney, right?
The reason why I find that interesting is because that’s sure helpful when it comes to writing leases and figuring out what you can and can’t do and how you deal with problems. That’s a great person to learn from who already has that side because a lot of this business is that side, the legal paperwork and how to evict, what you can and can’t do, and how to stay out of trouble. I find that interesting. It’s a good combination, an attorney and a real estate investor.
When you get a new person on you, give that initial interview, I always explain to them, “I am a lawyer. I am not going to be your lawyer. You will hire a lawyer because I can’t represent people outside of Massachusetts. Most of my clients are all over. I’m going to look, act and feel like an attorney in the process. When you need something, and you call your attorney, you don’t expect the attorney to wait two weeks for the next coaching call before he gives you the advice. You need that advice right away. That’s why my clients have my cell phone number.”
I pick out the phone when my clients call, and I give them the answer but I have written all the contracts, the purchase and sale contracts to protect my students. They don’t send out a piece of paper like a letter of intent, purchase and sale contract until I have reviewed it, and they then turn it over to their local counsel. I always want to make sure that for a deal to be done correctly, it starts with the very first piece of paper, which is the offer. We have to write that offer correctly on day one, and that will sail right through the entire process. My purchase and sale contract is not valid in all 50 states. That’s why you always need to have local counsel review it.
I have to give that disclaimer myself because I’m not even an attorney. I say, “I don’t know if any of this crap works but I have been doing it for many years. You need to take it to your lawyer and review what I have done. By the way, if they find an improvement, I would need to know about it because if there’s a hole.”
“If they find a mistake, give them a call, and I will educate them about the process.” You know more than the lawyer does.
That’s usually what happens exactly. One time, I went to this attorney to deal with a land trust, and he didn’t know what a land trust was. I had to explain it all to him. He showed him how cool it was and everything you could do. He sent me a bill for $250, and I called him and says, “You owe me $250. I taught you about something you knew nothing about. What are you sending me a bill for?”
That was the membership into his new course on land trust that he’s teaching down at the local REIA club.
What are some of the market trends? Most people, including me, are in this box where it says, “They are getting a premium among premiums for apartment complexes like 4% cap rates or whatever.” If people say that about the housing market, how do you find so many houses when it’s a hot market? I’m not looking where it’s move-in ready. I’m looking where there’s a problem.
We are looking to still value add as the way we have to go in this business. That’s where the money is being made. If you are seeing deals being done where there’s nothing to do to the property, stay away. Always think to yourself, “What would Warren Buffett do in this situation? Would he be buying in Phoenix?” “No.” Why are you buying an overpriced property in an overpriced market and expecting that it’s going to keep on going? It doesn’t work that way.
The trend that we are seeing is that smart money are you looking for value-add properties that can survive any market shifts. A lot of ground-up construction is still making a lot of sense, especially if you are getting the land for very cheap money. Those numbers still work. Some of these deals that Class B or Class A property in the primary markets, you’ve got stupid foreign money coming in here. I don’t know if you are good at geography but when I say stupid foreign money, I mean California investors. It doesn’t make sense. We are saying no more often than we are saying yes to deals.
Isn’t that always the case? With rare exceptions, maybe in the middle of the recession, you are getting more deals than you can handle. I was buying a house a day in the recession for almost two months when I scared myself. How that happens is I had the private money. The banks closed during the recession. It was a perfect setup if you had put in the time and found a lot of private lenders and had them in the wings.
I love what you said. People need to always be doing that. Even in the high times, you’ve got to be lining up that money.
It’s going to be hard for someone to want to take a chance and get to know you when there’s so much fear and pandemonium in the streets because of the recession. You’ve got to do some deals with these people in the good times so that as the bad times come, they are not afraid.
One of the biggest problems new investors have is that they are afraid to talk to the investors. What I found early on was that my clients would come back and say, “I had a great lunch with this investor. He’s got $100,000 that he’s going to invest with me.” I said, “In what?” “What do you mean in what?” “In what’s he going to invest?” “In multifamily.” Is it in value add or Class B? At what location?” “I didn’t ask him any of that.”You're a broker between your investor's money and the deal that you found. You're just matching up the money with the deal. Click To Tweet
You’ve given this guy a big out for when you come to him with the first deal and say, “I need your $100,000.” That’s not what I was looking for in my deal because you didn’t vet the person out. Knowing that that’s a big problem for new investors when you come on into my program, you get your own VA trained and employed by me but working for you. You get my customer relationship management tool that is geared towards investors, owners and brokers, the three types of customers.
On the investor side, you can generate a link that you can send out in an email, put it on your website, and asks your investors all of those questions. “What are you looking for? How much do you have? How long will you be investing for?” It determines if they are a credit investor. They hit the enter button, and all that information goes right into your CRM.
You can start doing blast emails and shooting messages out to these people, letting them know every step of the way how your journey is going so that when the time comes when you’ve got that great deal and you are ready, these people already know who you are. They have been listening to you for months and years because you have been keeping them in the loop in the process.
You can even use a case study of a deal that you have already consummated. It’s already done. It’s not available but let me show you a typical deal that we have done. Show them the typical deal so that they can get a sense of what they are going to be asked for and get in return. Here’s a key. A lot of my students have this limiting belief that, “Who’s going to want to give me money?” I’m thinking, “It’s not about you. It has nothing to do with you. If you have a good syndication deal, Charles Manson should have been able to raise the money.”
We know he convinced people to do other things. He was a salesman. It’s all about sales and marketing.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t speak English that good, you have a bankruptcy in your past or you don’t have that much experience. It’s not about you. It’s about the deal. Get to the deal. The deal is what sells everything. For long-time readers, that sounds cliché. For new people, it sounds too easy. I have $26 million of private money that I make payments on the first of every month.
I did it one person at a time. No one ever jumped with a million. They always wanted to do the smallest deal I had. They wanted to fill me out. They wanted to get their lawyer to look at the paperwork. They wanted to do one deal and see if I filed the deeds and if everything got filed right. That’s during the good times. When the recession hits, they are like, “I’m going to stay with this dude. He always makes a payment.”
Start with the singles. The Warren Buffetts don’t go swinging for the fences all the time. Build up your business with singles. I see these people with a go big or go home mentality. You can get to 1,000 units in 5 years with 20 units in the first year. That’s all you’ve got to do. Five years come so fast, and before you know it, you are right there.
I never hit a big million-dollar home run in my life. I’m not counting the buy and holds, the properties I had for ten years and then sold. I’m not counting that. I’m talking about I bought something and wanted to make some money. It was about $98,000 but I made tons and tons of $25,000, $30,000, $15,000 hits all along the way. I preferred it that way.
When I got started on coaching, I didn’t go for the big $40,000, $50,000 programs. I didn’t charge people that. I easily could. I did the monthly fees. I wanted to prove my worth every single month. I had to bring value to you every single month or you didn’t have to pay me. My first programs are continuity programs for coaching. It was the best thing in the world because I didn’t set up any half-hour coaching calls. I never did, never will. I would go out of my mind. If my student needs me, two minutes on the phone and we are done.
That’s the same here. They go, “When can I talk to you?” I said, “Whenever you need me, dial the phone. Here’s the thing, 911 is always life or death. 811 means, “I’m in a closing. They are trying to squeeze my, you know what. They are trying to make me sign something I’m not sure about. I need an answer now.” I will walk out of my lunch or something if it’s an 811. I say, “I need 30 seconds. I call you up. You give me the highs and lows quick. You make a decision.”
I have done that before where a client calls me up at the closing table and says, “Charles, this guy is trying to screw me on the security deposits. He says that he is going to use them for delinquent tenants.” I said, “Turn to page 19, article 13. He can’t do that. It says right there. Have a nice day.”
That’s all it takes sometimes. As a student, you don’t know what you don’t know. What a confidence builder and low anxiety trap trip into creative real estate when you have someone who has already been down the road.
One of the best things I do for my clients is to bring them confidence. I tell him, “I’m on the phone again with a broker and one of my students. We have already done it before. We did it last time.” He thought, “That was fantastic.” I get on the phone, and he listens to how I talk to a broker. When we are done, he’s like, “I’m getting it.” When they come into it, they don’t know what to say. They are going to think, “They are going to know I have never done it before.” So, what? How many have they purchased?
I had this one client. Every single time she talked to a broker that would always ask her for a proof of funds letter. That means that the broker is trying to kick her off and get her out of the way because they can tell by the way she’s talking that she doesn’t know what she’s doing. I said, “Next time you are going to talk to a broker, let me get on the phone with you.” Go through the whole thing. Do you think the broker asked me for a proof of funds letter?
No. He knew you were a pro.
Exactly. I said, “That’s how you do it. It takes five times on the phone with a broker. After that, you are going to be a legend.
Let me ask you a question. I heard a comment from Eddie Speed. I heard the same comment but in a different venue but he’s saying some of these apartments are going to be coming online. There should be some opportunities. As interest rates go up, a lot of these apartment guys were buying with adjustable-rate mortgages or five-year adjustments or whatever. The timing might be that if they pay too much for these properties, the higher interest rate is going to throw the upside down.
It’s the same thing for storage facilities. I know because the loan I was offered was a variable rate. I will only take a variable rate if they give me a ceiling, and I can live with it. A lot of people didn’t. They just signed the variable rate. Bankers are always going, “The rates can’t go up that much.” “Good, then sign a ceiling.” Don’t talk about that s**t unless you want to put it in writing because I’m not stupid.
Eddie Speed is correct. The first we are going to see it happen is with bridge loans, and the people who get these bridge loans can’t get conventional financing because the deal doesn’t pencil out. It doesn’t qualify. The occupancy is too low, so they get a limited window on when they get to turn this property around and make it happen.Smart money is looking for value add properties that can survive any market shifts. Click To Tweet
If they can’t do it, three years come, and instead of their original strategy was to refinance it into a particular loan, now at a 1 point, 1.5 points or even 2 points higher, they won’t be able to refinance. Those are the first ones that are going to start coming back to the bank, the bridge financing. You are going to look at the adjustables, the short-term like the five years. Those are the next because those interest rates are going up. Listen to these syndicators who are doing it like, “We have already stressed it. This property can handle this particular interest rate.”
That’s fine if your property can handle that interest rate but what happens is, over the next couple of years, as interest rates go up, cap rates are going to start to go up as well. The people buying property will not be able to afford as much properties before because their interest rates are killing them. The price is going to come down on the property.
How is that going to impact these people who are looking to get out of their adjustable five-year terms? It’s going to kill them. Eddie Speed is right. You are going to start to see waves. It’s going to start with those bridge financing. As interest rates go up, those three-year bridges are going to start to come back in record numbers.
The website CoStar is coming up with a feature on their database for delinquent mortgages. We are going to start looking at those. We are looking at Trepp. That’s another company that also tracks not just the CMBS notes but also any notes that are in some particular clearinghouse where they can see if these are 30, 60 or 90 days in the workout. You will know about those properties. Back in 2010, that’s the only place we looked. In the last few years, nothing. Now you are starting to see those numbers on those databases starting to creep up.
Where are the best opportunities in 2022?
Those are on non-primary markets, secondary and tertiary markets, preferably properties that are not listed by brokers, going directly to the owners and finding those properties where you’ve got absentee landlord. It’s pretty much the same thing but that’s where our entire focus is on. Those are the places where we see the value.
We don’t have to deal with the brokers. We don’t have to deal with a bidding war. We don’t have to deal with stupid cap rates. We can get in there. We are not relying on the market to bring value to the deal. We are relying on our own expertise as owner-operators to bring value to the deal. The market will be great if it works in our favor but we always make sure that the market can hurt us. We don’t need it to help us.
I believe in that because, in my organization, we have never counted on the appreciation. In Texas, appreciation is very minimal anyway. I like it that way because we have to find properties that have profit in them but they need to be unlocked by remodeling them, leveling them or bringing up the occupancy or whatever. That’s on me. “Mitch, do you think you can paint this house?” “Yes.” “If you do paint it and fix these floors, you are going to make some money.” That’s counting on me. I’m not guessing on some external force to make me money.
That’s the thing is, these people and newbies in the business are relying on the interest rates to continually be this ridiculously low number. They are continually expecting cap rates that could continue to compress. It’s not going to happen. They are expecting the demand for our product and the occupancy to still remain high. We are going to have a bump. Ivy Zelman says, “We are having a bump.” All of those things, if any one of things shifts, your deal goes south. That’s not the type of deal I want to be in.
I want to say this one more time before we get too far down the road, I want you to go to 1000Houses.com/MFOS for Multifamily Operating System and get your free report on how to find the right market for you. Where are you going to start this business? While we are on the subject of starting, where do a newbie and a beginner start?
It’s about learning. As you said, Mitch, I want to talk to you first. I want to make sure to figure out, “Am I the right fit for you? Is multifamily the right fit for you?” Even if you love it and know that you are going to do it, there are certain things you need to do to make sure you are starting off on the right foot. I want to find out what your knowledge base is. What bootcamps have you attended? What courses have you done? What books have you read?
Let me know what your background is in this business, and then tell me what your background is in business. Remember, because this is a business, I want to know that you know what you are getting yourself into. Everybody thinks, “I’ve got to do one.” How about that one? You are one deal away from retirement. Even that guy wasn’t one deal away from retirement.
For anybody who thinks that or for everybody that was go big or go home, there’s a million upon millions of them dead in the streets for the one guy that made it.
I love my track record. I love listening to my students come back and say, “I’m up to 1,000 apartments now,” because we did it the right way early on. It may have taken them a year or two years to do their first deal but they kept at it. I will never forget it. There’s one young couple. They were sending me deal after deal to review. I’m like, “Let’s focus here. We’ve got 90 days. We are going to do this in 90 days.” They are the people that you were talking about, Mitch, on the street doing nothing. It’s too bad because had they stayed with it? They would be owning their first property easily.
This career is a marathon. It’s not a sprint. If you are applying yourself, you should be getting smarter, getting more and more knowledge every day. They can’t take that all away from you. You keep getting smarter all the time. When I talk to people, I say, “I’m not brilliant by any stretch of the imagination. I wouldn’t score good on an SAT. I never have. One of the reasons is I can find 5 answers to 1 question because I see all different angles. I said, “If you give me some more information but it’s impossible to answer now, all four could be right.”
I don’t know why you weren’t a lawyer because you know what they say when you have two lawyers there. What do you have when you have two lawyers in the room?
Three opinions. That’s all they are saying.
The reason why I shine in that area is that I have had many years of staying in the same lane. I have seen the good times, the bad times, the recession, and the COVID. I know pretty much what happens. COVID was completely new off the chart. We didn’t know what was going to happen but we know what happened now. There may be two real recession-proof businesses. I never will say that any business is because that’s a huge statement.You can measure your coach by how much money they make you. You'll never be able to measure by how many lawsuits and how many losses they kept you out of because you can't measure it because you didn't lose. Click To Tweet
If there is a thing as a recession-proof business, probably affordable rentals and affordable owner, finance housings are two. If you can’t live in a house for the price of an apartment, then you are under a bridge. By the time all these apartments can’t be rented, and all these little houses can’t be sold with owner financing, we are picking up guns and going somewhere. Your money didn’t matter. My friend, I appreciate you taking the time to be on.
It’s always good to see you.
Did I leave anything out that you wanted to say or do?
You are going to have your website, all your contact information, and everything at 1000Houses.com/MFOS. Go over there. Get a consult with Mr. Dobens and see if you are a match. I have real confidence that Charles doesn’t want to play on a losing team any more than I do.
I’m going to tell you. Don’t waste my time if you are not going to go after this, knowing that this is what you want to do and this is your passion in life. I will give you a bunch of books you can read. If you want to get this thing done, come work with me. That’s the name of the game.
There’s no better way to do it. Remember, you are either going to pay the street or a coach but the education will never be free. I don’t care what you think, and the street is brutal. It can run you right out of business in a heartbeat, and no pep talk, no condolences, and no anything. It’s going to spit on you and kick you down the road. It’s a lot less anxiety to get with someone to go, “I don’t know what I’m doing here, Charles. What do I do?”
I’m writing that one down. I’ve got my white pad right here. It’s either the street or it’s a coach. It’s never free.
You are going to write a check, believe me or you are going to walk past money that you never saw.If you do the first deal wrong, you'll never do another deal. And the problem is that in order to get to your goals in this business, you’ve got to do multiple deals. That’s the only way. Click To Tweet
You will never get an opportunity again.
You can measure a coach by how much money they make you. You will never be able to measure by how many lawsuits and losses they kept you out of because you can’t measure because you didn’t lose. When you see a coach and you say, “That coach made me my money back.” It’s probably way more than that because he probably kept you out of a lot of trouble during your young, stupid era.
My top student has got 6,000 units. He says, “Charlie, the best advice you’ve ever given me is those deals that I didn’t do.”
They will kill you. They will set you back for years. Some of these deals could bankrupt you in the bigger echelons.
I always say that if you do the first deal wrong, you will never do another deal. The problem is that to get to your goals in this business, you’ve got to do multiple deals. You’ve got to build the business. That’s the only way.
The most important one is the first one because that’s the “make you or break you” one. That’s the one that can give you the confidence and the enthusiasm or the one that can scare the living crap out of you.
I say, “You are only going to need me for the first two deals. After that, we are just friends. That’s it.”
My friends, please check out Charles Dobens and get your free copy of the Multifamily Market Finder which can help discover the right market for you simply and easily. Bye for now.
- 1000Houses.com/MFOS Multifamily Operating System
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About Charles Dobens